Ok , this interview with Rob was a bit self indulgent, but if you don't ask you don't get in this life... anyway, I thought it was a good read.. hope you enjoy it as much as I did..
Cheers Steve
STEVE W: Please introduce yourself:
RP: My name is Rob Poyton, I live in Bedfordshire and I teach Systema.
STEVE W: Rob, I know most people reading this will have spent some time training with you and might know a little about your history in the Martial Arts, but could you give us a brief run down of where and when you got started and how you progressed to where you find yourself today..
RP: First thing I ever did martial arts wise was was Judo as a kid in East London. Did a bit of boxing here and there. Then started training in kung fu at 18. Outside of that it was a lively time and place to live, so there were always plenty of things happening.I trained in Internal kung fu / tai chi for a long time. Then came a point where I started looking around to "fill the gaps". So I looked at lots of things - trained with pressure point guys like Rick Moneymaker, Erle Montaigue, RBSD guys like Peter Conserdine and Dave Turton, picked up some ju-jitsu, arnis and wing chun from friends, that kind of thing. Last year I had the chance to train with Steve Morris, which was interesting.
STEVE W: What was the biggest influence on you during the early days of your training? was there any one person that inspired you or was there anyone that kept on encouraging you to keep doing what you do..?
RP: I guess everyone my age remembers the Kung Fu series and Bruce Lee. I suppose it was the influence of those combined with a need to be able to look after myself that got me started. Martial arts were presented as a very cool thing at the time, not just for fighting but the whole culture of it all. So that was the start. After that - my training partners really, especially later on when I met and trained with people like Rob Murray and Dave Nicholson. I've never been one for following a teacher for the sake of it
STEVE W: Rob from the DVD’s you have produced I see a fair few were on Tai Chi Chuan can you explain why you chose this system over any of the other Chinese arts and how practical did you find it as a self defence system?
RP: I chose it purely by chance - it was local to me at the time. I was lucky in that the school I went to taught as a martial art and not the purely health / new age stuff you tend to see in most tai chi classes. It was as practical as you wanted to make it. There's a lot of good stuff in the Chinese internal styles on bodywork, balance, developing power and the like. A group of us took it and trained together outside class - in the gym at a mental hospital funnily enough! - every Monday for a few years. The group were all guys with real life experience so I guess what we did is took the "classical" art and adapted it to our experiences. Rough and tumble stuff but good times!
STEVE W: When where you first exposed the System and what where your initial thoughts / feelings about it and the instructors promoting this unheard of Martial Art..?
RP: A friend sent me a copy of Vladimir's old Hand to Hand video. First thoughts - the guy had amazing movement and body mechanics (it was what the CIMA promised but he was actually doing it!) but I thought his students fell over way to easily. That view was altered to say the least when I first met Vladimir! He asked me to try whatever I liked - I did and he dealt with it not only easily but in such a...charming.. way it was both funny and humbling.
STEVE W: What do you understand the System to mean and what advantages do you see over other training methods, is it more advantageous to have come from a previous background in some other Martial Art before being exposed to the System or is it better to have had little or no understanding of any other fighting system, to work from a clean slate so to speak?
RP: For me Systema is nothing to do with martial arts in the accepted sense. In fact the older I get the less I feel any inclination to "martial arts". The System is about you as an individual and how you interact with things and people around you. On one level the word "system" can refer to the systems of the body / mind - muscle, bone, nervous, respiratory, psychological and so on. It's a training method of ensuring all those systems are working together efficiently and naturally. Once you have a level of work going, you can apply it to whatever you like. It happens that in my classes we mostly put that into general self defence training. It could just as easily go into sports training, military training (which is one of the sources for it of course) or whatever you want it for.
It gets away from this "martial arts" idea of learning something that you then use - typically a catalogue of techniques taught via kata or drills. My feeling is - if we are talking martial arts - that the Systema way is much closer to how things were taught when people were actually using the stuff for real (and of course you have to remember the main Systema guys all have operational backgrounds). Somewhere along the way - maybe when things get broken down for easy teaching, or due the pressure of market forces (people like a nice clear syllabus with a grading structure) it all gets a bit regimented and loses sight of the "natural".
There is also this question of fitting into a "style". Each of these styles has their own requirements of stance and strategy that you have to fit into. So a Wing Chun man works one way, a boxer another and so on. You fit into the system. With us it's the other way round - the system fits into you. Once you understand the core principles, you can add in a bit of technical knowledge, test it all out in different ways and off you go. That's why it's a nightmare to market (laughs) - no structure, no heirarchy, no uniforms...
As far as previous experience goes - depends on the individual. It can be a struggle to let go of former habits, but you night also have a good understanding of some things. For a complete new person they are a clean slate, but also may need to be shown some things from scratch. Most important is how people grasp the principles. If they do, they can pick things up very quickly.
STEVE W: In your early years of training was the emphasis in training all about working with principles and a few ideas from senior instructors thrown in, was this enough to get you up and running as an instructor; did you then also have to develop your own training ideas along side or has it meant a continued revisit to the source to enable you to progress?
RP: Early or now, the emphasis is always on the principle. It's like teaching someone to read music - once you understand, you can start writing your own. Of course understanding will be basic at first, but as it deepens the music gets better. Valentin Vasiliev describes it as "clean and dirty" work. Someone attacks, you move and do something to him, ok, it's effective enough but the movement was a bit rough, the strike wasn't too accurate, you could have been more efficient - so over a period of time the work becomes "cleaner". It's something people recognise when they see it - say like the feeling you get from watching a big cat hunting as opposed to a couch potato running for a bus. Clean and dirty.
So are far as teaching goes - the main thing is that you have a reasonable grasp of principles and can put those across through the various drills we do. You are fully encouraged to develop your own - this is how Systema grows, through innovation, not just following what someone else does
STEVE W: How much of what you do in class evolves as the class progresses, or do you have a plan before the session starts, a rough idea of where you want to get to and what topic you want to cover.
RP: At first I used to plan classes, or at least pick a theme. These days - I pretty much make it up on the spot. Of course sometimes there are new people in, so they might need a little more structure, or someone may ask for specific work. But with the guys we have on Saturday now, it's easy for me to go off at whatever tangent and everyone can follow along - they are all experienced and free thinking enough to do that
STEVE W: When I first started training in Systema with you, I was constantly looking for ways to gauge my progression.. do you think this necessary? For people like myself who are sampling the System and are from a very structured Martial Arts background, how would you explain to them what they should expect from the training and how they should approach the feelings they might have about comparing themselves against others; as there isn’t the traditional grading structure like in any Chinese or Japanese art.
RP: The desire to measure our progress is a natural one and it's not necessarily a bad thing, though it can get over-emphasised. I guess coming from a traditional Chinese background, which doesn't grade, it wasn't a great leap for me. If I go back to my music analogy (as you know I'm a musician too!), you find that kids tend to take music exams, or people first learning an instrument. After a while people don't really do it. How do they gauge their progression? Through what they do - better understanding, better feel, the playing becomes "cleaner". So the same thing here. If you practice right, when the skill is needed it's there
Stop rehearsing for things and just let it happen. Too much training is based around fear - what if....how about if he does this...does an axe hand work better than a punch? It's all based around these scenarios, even just on a subconscious level. And of course that is exactly how some people sell their art - pump up the fear and offer a solution. But in offering the solution keep pumping up the fear in order to keep people with you! Self defeating. You end up with a siege mentality almost - though maybe that's also an indication of how society is going at the moment
When you have driving lessons how many people ask "what if"? Yet our chances of being in a car incident are much higher for the most part than being in a mass fight against 10 ninjas. Imagine a driving school that advertised as "Accidents! Death! Mutilation on the road! Take our driving course and stay safe!" But if you train well as a driver, maybe take an advanced course or two, you can handle most day to day situations.
So training should be the same - know your principles and practice how to apply them
It can be quite a culture shock for people used to a very formal training approach. Best advice - jump in, understand the purpose of the drills (ask if necessary) and try it. You can't always assume and of course people often try and fit what we do into their previous approach (I know I did).
Comparing yourselves against others - I've never found it that useful, but then I've never been a naturally competitive person. My feeling is it's all a matter of context. For example there was a case last year of an elderly lady beating up a teenage burglar who she found in her house. Now put those in a ring - which one is your money on? Yet in the context of fearing for her life she put him away! That's without any "martial arts" training!
So in a group there are some things I can maybe do better than others, some they can do better than me. If an instructor has a view that he needs to be able to be better at everything that anyone who ever comes into class...well that's a bit unrealistic...and you end up with "masters" who never actually touch anyone for fear of losing face. So who's to say - by all means put classmates under pressure, but to help them, not to feel you are better than they are. If someone "beats" us we should be grateful, they have shown something we need to work on. Better you get shown it by a classmate than someone really trying to hurt you
STEVE W: Rob what are your thoughts on realism in training? How do you convince someone new to Systema who may have only been exposed to the clips available on Youtube that really don’t really show Systema in it best light, that it is a worthwhile system to learn… meaning the soft slow work shown doesn’t always transmit what is actually going on in the clip.. can you explain why this slow work is so important and should we be spending equal amounts of time on rough and tumble, faster pace stuff? what you might call pressure testing.
RP: The only way to "convince" is face to face. Even then it's not always clear. It's like anything; someone who is determined not to be convinced will always find an "out". "I wasn't ready" is one I've heard or even "you aren't allowed to do that"! That's up to people. Again if they have this approach that it's "me vs The System" then they don't really understand what is going on. Sometimes you are trying to demonstrate a point and the other person thinks it's a life or death fight (laughs). Sometimes if you don't hit hard enough people keep going, if you hit hard enough they get upset.
Likewise people will judge video clips from their own perspective. If what you do is purely ground based one-on-one in a ring, and you think that is the mutts nuts for example, that is your frame of reference. Anything outside of that is either irrelevant to you or just odd. Until you maybe experience how, say, some of those odd looking breathing exercises can actually help your ground game, then that is always what you will think.
Realism - I'm a firm believer in that training, no matter how hard or intense it is, is always training. The challenge for any instructor is to have feelings of fear, anticipation, adrenaline, etc balanced with risk of injury. And it is a challenge - so you have to be innovative as to how to increase pressure. The breathing work is a very simple and effective way for one.
The reason they are able to teach this stuff so quick to the military guys is that injury is not a problem. These are professional people who accept that as part of the work. Basically the more intense the experience you are prepared to face, the quicker you can learn (given the right mindset). It's not a question of being a "tough-guy" more of understanding yourself. Of course it takes good understanding from the instructor too, something I do struggle with at times - how much to "give" people and in what way. It's one of the great things Vladimir and Mikhail have, even 5 minutes one-to-one with them can change you.
As far as showing Systema in it's best light - well, you have to ask what the "best light" is? Unless it looks like a Bruce Lee movie or a UFC fight, most people won't be interested. So I try and just show the regular work. That brings up an interesting thing though - people see the soft work and cry "soft!". People see the hard work and cry "that’s crazy!". Sometimes you just can't win! Bear in mind very few people actually want good strong training that will challenge them on so many levels. I don’t mean mindless beasting, that's just destructive in the long run. And sometimes the "soft" stuff can be the most challenging of all.
Slow work is an integral part of the method, it's not a case of slow = basic and fast = advanced. When I first trained in Moscow I was surprised how slow some of it was - and believe me you are training with some real scary people there! It's an approach designed to get results, not pander to the ego of the individual. It's surprising how little control people have sometimes - and it can be the case that people need a feeling of "over stimulation" to feel they are getting good training. Loud music, posturing, having all the right kit, pulling a face, getting stuck in... it's a nice bonding session but it's not necessarily the full picture.
If you look at how the professional guys train - by pro I mean especially the Russian operatives - it's very different. I guess it's a bit like the difference between regular army square bashing and spec ops training. That's the feel we aim for - not trying to be "commandoes" but professional in approach, in whatever capacity we are training.
STEVE W: Rob, since I’ve been training under you in Systema, I have felt physically stronger and the injuries I’d been carrying for a long time are so much easier now… can you tell me what the health benefits you might find while working in the System and how do the drills and exercises affect the body… have they had an impact on you personally..?
RP: Oh yes, for sure. Previous training left me with bad knees - and I don't care what anyone says about "oh you didn't do it right..." Lots of the top tai chi guys have bad knees. They are fixed now, though it's interesting how the "memory" remains - it seems the body retains an impression of any trauma it may have suffered. The psyche too come to that. Systema training can treat the problem and also deal with the underlying trauma. It's something that goes very deep - or as deep as you will let it. On a more general level I feel stronger and fitter than ever before and yet do far less training than previously! I guess like yourself I used to be involved in 2-3 hours a day minimum to work my forms, weapons, bag work, qigong and all the rest. That is very different now. As you have seen the Systema exercises are all quite straight forward but very adaptable. They take a normal press up and develop so many variations, each with it's own little challenge. Just as important is the fact that the exercises are non-destructive - if you do them right they make you strong, not tear you body up. I can't tell you the amount of people I meet who carry injuries from training. Crazy isn't it - 15 years training and they have far more injuries from training than they would ever have from getting into the occasional punch up! Training should strengthen you physically and psychologically, not destroy your body and make you a "follower"
STEVE W: In your view why do you think Systema has had such a bad press recently and is the subject of various threads in Martial Arts forums..? Is it because it doesn’t conform to the conventional view of what a Martial Art is and should look like? Or is it just human nature to be very sceptical of things we don’t understand.. I know I was very sceptical at first, but my views are slowly changing the more time I spend looking at what it has to offer..
RP: As far as that goes I don't really worry about it. The rise of the internet forum has bred a whole new generation of critics, it's a new experience. I'll sound like an old codger but back in my day, you went and saw someone and were clear about what you wanted to do - is this a friendly try out or is this a ruck, or whatever in between. We've always been open to that and yet the biggest critic’s don’t show. Another thing you have to remember - the Internet is a great new marketing tool and I'd guess at least three quarters of what you see on Forums relates directly to marketing - make yourself big by knocking the "opposition". Systema is a big threat to some people. I've heard some interesting things through my network (laughs). You know, people who say one thing to your face then another to their students. Imagine their students going somewhere with no gradings where you can actually teach them to be effective in half the time! "Think about my organisation!" (laughs). Not everyone is like that, there are some good folk out there, but it's part of that "martial arts" world again.
Another thing is that it is easy to focus on the "bad press". If you look at our Forum for example and compare it to others...there aren't that many postings, but tend to be positive and interesting. Other forums are full of Youtube clips "look at this crap!", people self promoting, kissing someone’s arse and all the rest of it. Trouble is - and I've experienced this first hand - is that some of the young guys now see "winning" on a Forum as a fight! It's the same feeling to them as winning a fight, in their minds they have had this victory and I guess it makes them feel good about themselves. It's part of this growing culture of everything being one step removed from reality. Doesn’t matter if I kick someone’s head in cos it's just like a computer game, and nothing bad will happen to me...anyway that's veering into politics now (laughs)
STEVE W: Which of the two, Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev do you tend to base your ideas on, or do you draw from both as they clearly have different approaches to training.
RP: I think Vladimir's way is more readily accessible to people, but Mikhail's is deeper - and believe me Vladimir is deep enough! Even his own long term students struggle with Mikhails work at times, you have to be very perceptive to see what is going on. But he is without a doubt the highest level I've seen (and I've seen a fair few over the years!). I can understand if it isn't everyone's cup of tea - it's very honest training in that it relates directly back to you and your reactions. I can also understand how people miss-interpret that (of course deliberately sometimes) and talk about this "cult" thing - it's bollox though, there's no-one further removed from that type of crap than these people.
So I draw from both I guess - and all the others I've trained with too, the Sergei's, Valentin, Konstantin and so on. This is the idea again - each of those gives you his version of the System. They all have different experiences and you get the benefit of that. That's an important thing in general class too - every person there has experience and has valid input. That's one reason the circle up at end of class is so important - the group is strengthened by the individual. Hierarchies and belts get in the way of that. Someone questioned recently how come "higher grades train with "lower" in our classes. Precisely because of that - you might be a black belt accountant training with a white belt soldier who has 3 tours of wherever behind him. So under that style the white belt's experience is relegated - because it doesn't fit in with the syllabus. What nonsense - look at the person not the belt. And of course it may be in other situations the accountant's experiences are just as important as the soldier. You never know what people have gone through, they constantly surprise with their insights! It's one of the joys of teaching.
Of course you also get the "secrecy" issue in Oriental styles, only certain people are privy to information...that's nonsense too. Of course there is an obligation to teach responsibly but this notion of "advanced" technique is crap. First off, you are looking to make everything simpler, not more complicated. Second this drip feeding of "knowledge" often creates a very unhealthy dependence / reverence for "teacher". I'll share something I saw years ago - a high level Chinese master with his senior disciple that had been with him for 20+ years.....so the Master is walking along the street, the disciple is keeping step about 5 paces behind...so the Master starts speeding down and slowing up, giggling to himself and his audience....the guy behind is like a little puppet on a string trying to keep pace... how comical and how charming everyone thought it was! Respect is all well and good but to me that was just a little power trip. Of course apologists will say "ah but it's the culture" - yet other teachers from the same culture have been totally different.
STEVE W: Rob can you please outline the principles Systema is built on and why are they so important? Do any other M/A’s work similar ideas? When I trained in Karate we would always talk about posture, breathing, good movement etc.. how does the Systems way of using these principles differ?
RP: Breathing, movement, posture, tension/relaxation are the four "pillars". Understanding our emotional / fear response ties in with those too. Yes you are right, everyone talks about them, but then brackets them into a particular method. They will put you into a stance, place your arms a certain way. Now that can be a tool to help you understand those things. But often the map becomes the territory - the stance becomes more important than the situation. We are more about getting back to a natural movement - look how young kids or animals work, play fight.
STEVE W: Do you think we in the UK have a good grasp of what Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev are trying to get across? And as far as you are concerned do you think we really understand the concept of what the art is?
RP: (laughs) I'd like to think so. More and more people are going across to train with the main guys (which of course I'd always recommend) And of course there are levels of understanding. At first for me it was an add-on to my other training to help fill in some gaps, now it is much more. The sea is there - it's up to you how far out you want to go!
STEVE W: How do you think your students are evolving? How do they compare to students in other countries.. is the standard high or do we all have some way to go..
RP: We all have some way to go! You only stop learning when they put the lid down! But as far as our regular guys go it's been good progress. We were saying at the Spring Camp this year it was the best level yet in terms of good work. That's encouraging, and really purely down to the teaching methods we've got from Mikhail, Vladimir and co.
STEVE W: What are your thoughts about the direction Systema is taking and what might `be it's future?
RP: Although you have the "big names", it's very de-centralised. It's something else that "martial artists" struggle with (laughs) You don’t pay to join the association, don't go for gradings...so it's quite a different "feel" in that respect. I guess the down side to that is anyone can set up as an instructor - in fact I know of one guy who did that on the back of watching a few DVDs. That's OK if you are honest with it - anyone can set up a training group and get a few friends together. But without regular input from the main guys it's easy to go off track - I've seen it happen, particularly with guys who think they can "cash in " on the latest trend. They soon move on to the next "big thing" and leave us quietly growing (laughs).
STEVE W: What has given you the greatest pleasure in your training over the years and what was the most rewarding experience you’ve had so far?
RP: In terms of training - it's given me a lot and the benefits can come from it in all sorts of little unexpected ways. It's also pushed me into making some quite big changes in my life over the last few years and moved me in a much more positive direction - so I feel lucky to be where I am now.
In terms of teaching - seeing people develop confidence and become more outgoing and happier. Of course it's always good to hear how the training has got people through some bad situations, especially with the professional guys who are out there putting themselves on the line.
Seeing how a group comes together and helps each other is rewarding too. As a club we don't really go in for "club identity" and all that stuff. Yet there's a good underlying feeling of unity and I know that any of our regular guys can turn to each other for help of any kind. That's a nice thing and something reflected throughout Systema at large. It's like a family - and of course we all disagree with family at times! But you know they are there for you!
STEVE W: Having spent many years in the Martial Arts what is it that motivates you and keeps you focused on your training, as sometimes I find that motivation can be the hardest thing to find sometimes, especially when training on your own.
RP: I find if I eat enough chocolate and cake it motivates me to keep training (laughs). I don't know really - having the group helps and, at the end of the day, because I enjoy doing it. Also as you get older you get more appreciative of health and fitness! If I don't train enough I get grumpy and my wife nags me more so that's a nice motivator too....
STEVE W: Do you find the historical aspects of the martial arts interesting; is there anything we can take from Martial Arts history that could be relevant today?
RP: I've always been interested in military history, it's a hobby of mine and of course it's always good to look at other cultures. Yes, you can get a lot from that. You can also get a lot from your own culture too, which is something Systema has brought me back to. It's good to see people such as Steve on Saturday , for example, training in English Backsword. It's all relevant - people are people, we face the same struggles and pitfalls now as we ever did - the face changes but it's the same thing underneath.
STEVE W: What are your views on Weapons training, especially Knife and gun work, how much emphasis do you put on this type of training? Is it really necessary?
RP: As necessary as anything else - I don't think it should really be distinguished from empty hand. It's all movement, just different circumstances. It's always interesting on a psychological level - both from working against and using. Of course for some people it may be more necessary to learn, but for most of us in the UK they are tools that can help in training, nothing more nothing less.
STEVE W: Over the years have you had cause to use any of the skills Systema has given you, not necessarily in a confrontational situation.
RP: Yes (laughs)
STEVE W: What in life is the most important thing to you and what are your goals or ambitions for the future.. if any?
RP: Most important things - family, friends and your relationship to your Creator, however your perceive that. I don't have goals as such, beyond having a good group of people to train with, enjoying my life as much as possible and being able to "put something back" every now and then. There's a lot of fear and paranoia around at the moment. I'm not saying it's groundless, but keep an eye on the bigger picture and don't let the fear isolate you. What was it Fletcher used to say "dont let the bastards grind you down"!
STEVE W: Rob thanks for your time in answering my questions..
RP: Pleasure, thanks Steve, and also thanks for the excellent blog!
1 comments:
Excellent interview. I enjoy Mr. Poyton's Cutting Edge DVDs very much. I live in Utah, USA right now.
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